Good day all, in response to the increase in transphobia we’ve experience since the For Women Scotland v Scotland Supreme Court decision, seemingly a mix of genuine malice and people tripping up with a topic they’re unfamiliar with, I’ve taken the initiative to write some guidelines on how to engage in the topic and clearing up some common misconceptions.
https://guide.feddit.uk/politics/transphobia.html
I’m not all that happy with them, I want something more comprehensive but my time has been pretty taxed lately and I don’t want my perfectionism to stand in the way of having these out. If there’s any issues, glaring omissions or whatnot, then please let me know or make a pull request here.
I understand this. I think what kind of annoyed me the most is
I don’t really think it’s fair equivalence to make. I think it would be transphobic to claim someone is less intelligent or should be penalised in society, although I am probably approaching this with a philosophical/theological view rather than how people should be treated.
I don’t really like the idea of being told how to think about things. I think this is a slight step too far, if it means forcing someone to agree with something they’re not comfortable with agreeing with.
I’d rather if there was a more clear-cut “this is a controversial issue - please don’t talk about it”. I wouldn’t expect a transgender person to have to care about anyone else’s moral convictions except their own. As long as they’re treated equally. So I think I can moreso accept a “please don’t talk about it” as I think any such discussion about “what is a man/woman” isn’t actually a productive way of looking at things. Because moreso what concerns me isn’t if people should be given gender affirming care, but at what stage is it appropriate and who should pay for it.
Another thing I don’t really like about it:
Is this really unbiased if it’s what "Twitter lefty shitposter"s think? I’ve found that group to be pretty toxic and malicious, and chosen to avoid that crowd.
But apart from that, the guidelines are quite clear on how to act on the instance. I just wish there was more dialogue about the issue.
This is the bit you object to?
So invalidating a trans person’s whole identity doesn’t count as transphobic in your view, and you go on to object to moderation actions being taken on these grounds! You claim you want more dialogue but what you actually want is moderators to tolerate your transphobic pontifications without consequences for you, never mind the affect on other people’s mental health.
What sort of effect on other people’s mental health are you referring to here?
Being invalidated upsets trans people. Suicide rates are alarmingly high in the community because of that kind of whole-being rejection. Your transphobic pontifications are idle speculation for you but can be powerfully upsetting for trans people. I don’t know how you can be so devoid of empathy or emotional intelligence that you don’t get that or so low on reading comprehension that you couldn’t deduce it from context. Trans people need protecting from people discussing whether they have a right to exist.
Removed by mod
I see the misunderstanding here. I’m not talking about discussing if transgender people have a right to exist, nor speculating on individual people’s identities. I’m talking about respectful philosophical discussion around the subject.
Yet this is what you object to, what you want to debate, what you want to discuss philosophically:
Your “respectful philosophical discussion” about whether trans identities are valid or worth as much as other people’s is deeply and profoundly disrespectful and hurtful.
Why can’t you just accept that some people are different to you, and you can just let them be without telling them that they’re wrong about who they are?
It’s not about telling people that they’re wrong about who they are. Just about philosophical discussion surrounding ethics on the subject
You hide your hate behind clever sounding words.
This is why I struggle to take things like this seriously. Probably why I struggle to engage with leftists as a whole. Any time I try and have dialogue, someone has to make a remark like this.
So is it black peoples or trans peoples identities that you believe are worth less?
What more discussion is there to be had?
You know what, I don’t even want to know.
I don’t think you read at all what I said correctly.
You said you don’t like people telling you how to think. But no one is.
They are just telling you that your an arsehole if you think a certain way.
You have the right to think how ever you like. But we will also judge you based on that thinking.
It’s less telling you that you’re an arsehole and moreso a threat of a ban. I think the downvoting is usually enough to ward away arseholes
Are you under the impression the admins can read your mind?
I wish people could understand me better
Then learn to write more transparently.
Easy to say if you’re neurotypical
This is a social discussion forum not a linguist philosophy one, the rules and guidelines are going to reflect this. Part of that is setting the boundaries for what opinions are and aren’t acceptable, and what the working definitions of what we consider bigotry are. Saying these opinions aren’t allowed is necessarily going to exclude people who actually believe them.
Besides, epistemologically, there is no reason to see a trans person’s “I’m a man” as less than a cis person’s “I’m a man”. If you want to have these discussions, then you need to do it in an appropriate context. The comment section under a trans article isn’t really the best place as this comes across as trollish and like you’re trying to sneak in transphobia under the guise of philosophy.
That video is mostly an application of Wittgenstein’s idea of family resemblances to the ‘what is a woman’ debate, should be right up your ally if what you want is philosophical discussion.
What is? Feddit.uk?
Yes, feddit.uk.
That seems a bit presumptuous? What if someone creates some [email protected] community?
Why dictate the purposes to which feddit.uk can be put? Why declare any purpose, “social discussion” or otherwise?
That wouldn’t really change the fact this is a place for discussion of things with other people. It would just be another place to have social discussion, but with a narrower range of topics than, say, an ask-a-question community.
Instance-level rules and guidelines are going to be general purpose.
So if someone created a linguistic philosophy community on feddit.uk and in that community members held a discussion on ‘a trans person’s “I’m a man” as less than a cis person’s “I’m a man”’, is that prohibited or not?
One, that would be a bad subject for a linguistic philosophy community, and two, no as that’s pretty clearly within the stated definition of transphobia. I’m not going to let bigotry propagate because someone obstinately rule lawyered a comment I made an hour after waking up.
Is this about protecting the instance though or enforcing an opinion? This wasn’t a problem before Blahaj got upset. “Bigotry” seems to be a buzzword these days without clear definition, and it doesn’t really seem like it’s helping from such an important topic to discuss, as the cass report seemed to show.
If someone were to be in a hospital, and the nurse needed to know if they were a man or a woman for medical purposes, an AMAB person saying “yes” would be different from an AFAB trans man saying “yes”. I don’t think it’s fair to claim their identity socially is less than or different, or that he is a second class man when it comes to drinking with his mates down the pub. But if it comes to let’s say, a discussion of men’s rights issues, and it’s someone who started identifying as a man yesterday claiming that male mental health issues are overblown, compared to an AMAB person talking about life being a struggle, wouldn’t there be a difference there, even though it doesn’t make the trans man any less of a man?
And so following from your other comments, the appropriate contexts you’re referring to are outside of the feddit.uk instance entirely? The instance is never an appropriate context and any such discussion whatsoever is prohibited?
Yes, there is no appropriate place on feddit.uk to discuss if a trans person’s gender identity is less valid than a cis person’s.
The part you quoted was aimed at a Flax’s comment as a whole, who expressed a disinterest in this particular debate.
Are detrans discussions prohibited?
I don’t think such a discussion on a trans forum is appropriate. But what if it’s a discussion on a more conservative forum or on a post about theology?
What do you mean by epistemologically?
This is pretty categorically not a conservative forum, so I don’t really see your point. If you want to discuss the Biblical definition of man/woman and whether that includes trans people in a theology post then sure? That would be appropriate context.
I mean that fundamentally, there is nothing more true about a cis person saying they’re a man than a trans person saying they’re a man.
This comment along with others like
and
make it clear that feddit.uk has an agenda: it’s for lefty social discussion.
Adding @[email protected] @[email protected]
Can I suggest making that agenda clear in the “Who are we?” section of feddit.uk 's front page so that people are aware of what they’re signing up for and that this isn’t just a general UK instance? In particular, it seems egregious to me that there is no mention of the fact that conservatives aren’t welcome.
That’s a very dishonest reading of what I wrote, but not surprising coming from you. This not being a conservative forum isn’t the same as conservatives not being welcome, I believe we even have some around. But they still have to follow the rules.
This is getting very tiresome for what is a very little ask, don’t be transphobic. This has been a rule on the site literally from inception.
This is irrelevant to the issue at hand. Whatever it is that feddit.uk is not, please state that up front in the “Who are we?” section. If feddit.uk is not a conservative forum, please state “feddit.uk is not a conservative forum” in the “Who are we?” section. That would at least give people more clarity on what feddit.uk is, who is here and what they can expect when they post from here.
By the same token, clarifying what feddit.uk is and is not in the “Who are we?” section seems to me like a very little ask.
But the new “guidelines” and more importantly the statements from an admin (yourself) in comments under this post about what feddit.uk is not, are all new. As far as I know, philisophical discussion of trans issues had never been prohibited before.
My understanding of feddit.uk until this post was that it would reflect general wider social mores of British society: tolerance, even of those who have what we feel to be reprehensible views, up to the point where it’s clear a person is uncivil or unreasonable. Now my understanding of feddit.uk is different: there are some areas of discussion which are not tolerated under any circumstances, regardless civility or reasonableness. There is now an ideological component, not to the makeup of the user population (which has always been obvious), but to the governance of the instance which is a whole different kettle of fish and very new. Now, feddit.uk has an official ideological position: not a conservative forum, social discussion, no philosophical debate about trans issues, etc.
A conservative forum is a forum run by conservatives for conservatives and limits itself to conservative positions, feddit.uk is demonstrably not this. Feddit.uk is not many things, it’s not a conservative forum, it’s not a socialist forum, it’s not a biking forum. It’s a general purpose discussion forum that can touch on topics like conservativism, socialism or biking. This is a descriptive not prescriptive statement and I don’t see how a reasonable person would describe this place differently. I’m not going to list all the things this place is not as that’s an infinity long list.
Again, this place has always had rules on what isn’t allowed, including ‘no transphobia’. Polite bigotry is still bigotry, do you think we should allow race realists if they mind their Ps and Qs correctly? There are many who feel their bigotry — weather that be racism, sexism, homophobia — isn’t ‘unreasonable’, but even tolerant Britain doesn’t let them inject these believes wherever, social spaces like pubs and community events still limit what can take place in them. I don’t see why we should be more accepting of transphobia just because it’s more socially acceptable at the moment.
‘Philosophical discussion of trans issues’ is such a non-statment, say what you actually mean instead of hiding behind such meaningless rhetoric. The only things these guidelines ask you to do is not promote fear or hatred of trans people and that you aren’t allowed to say that a trans person’s gender identity is less valid than a cis person’s. These aren’t unreasonable asks and I wonder what reasonable ‘philosophical discussion’ this excludes, unless you’re just looking for ‘civil’ ways of calling a trans man a woman.
Says who?! It can mean whatever you define it to mean. You’re just making stuff up, you’re no authority.
This is not the way you presented feddit.uk before. You seemed to be explicitly excluding conservativism.
Of course but I would point out that social conservativism is the dominant political philosophy in the UK so it would be odd and in fact misleading not to be up front about excluding conservativism in an instance that advertises itself as a general UK instance. Hence my concern.
Most definitely. How else could such views be shown up for what they are using sound reason and subtle but devastating wit, as is the British way? (As opposed to sticking one’s fingers in one’s ears and shouting “LA LA LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU UR DUMB I’MA BAN U”.)
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say with this but I would note that with one exception, all the racist people I’ve had the misfortune of encountering have been in pubs. And moreover, I wouldn’t want to spend time in any pub where any kinds of ‘certain’ discussions were outright prohibited.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jssqYTMf9E
Debating isn’t the same thing as accepting.
It seems you’ve changed your tune:
1. In response to the question “The instance is never an appropriate context and any such discussion whatsoever is prohibited?”: “Yes, …”
2. “It’s about protecting a vulnerable minority. … I don’t want this place to be a contributor to these statistics and I’m going to prioritise the safety of our trans users over some notion of neutrality.”
And also, to be clear:
3. In response to the question “if someone created a linguistic philosophy community on feddit.uk and in that community members held a discussion on ‘a trans person’s “I’m a man” as less than a cis person’s “I’m a man”’, is that prohibited or not?” which is about discussion of whether a trans person’s “I’m a man” is less than a cis person’s “I’m a man” and doesn’t necessarily imply saying anything one way or the other: “no [yes] as that’s pretty clearly …”
There’s plenty. Wouldn’t it be great if we created a place where such wonderings could be explored honestly without concern over being banned? What a pity that instead there’s a place of dullness, with rules motivated by fear.
What is not?
Ah, this makes sense now, thanks for clearing it up, and the work you do!
I think as the fediverse grows, conservative forums will start to appear and sprout up eventually.
Ah yes, sweep it under the carpet and hope it all just goes away. Such a mature way of dealing with a difficult subject.
I think it’s better than censoring one side of a controversial subject
Not everything needs to be up for debate. Admins are saying “here’s the rules, no transphobia, here’s what that means for us”. So no debate on whether trans identities are inferior or invalid
Flamingos clarified for me 🙂
That’s the problem. You’re trying to equate being trans, which is something internal, that your mind manifests, with something like being black. A physical trait that is external, that one cannot hide, or run from.
You pervert the nature of the discussion when trying to base truth off false equivalence
I thought that’s what a lot of it was? Someone who chooses to identify as another gender
If I’m wrong about this, please correct me.
Yeah, being trans is either a choice, or an internal mental manifestation that someone has no control over, but regardless, it’s not something others see immediately, unless you choose to draw attention to it
It comes from gender dysphoria, doesn’t it?
If it’s someone making a choice, then why should we respect that in the same way we should respect people with gender dysphoria identifying as their selected gender?